Israel and Palestine: an Interview with Historian Michael Scott-Baumann

On Tuesday, 30th January, historian, Michael Scott-Baumann, author of 'Palestinians and Israelis: A Short History of Conflict', gave a talk at PGS on the current situation in Israel and Palestine. After his talk, he was interviewed by Marinela Pervataj. 

Do you think a two state solution could be viable in ending the conflict?

It could be. It has the potential to be. But I think that for there to be a viable Palestinian state a lot of the settlements will have to be dismantled. A lot of the big settlement blocks near the Israeli borders maybe they become part of Israel and Israel gives up some of its territory for a Palestinian state. But I think that at the moment Israeli military bases and Israeli settlements throughout the West Bank would have to be dismantled. I’d like to think that in my lifetime that might happen. It’s a tall order.

To me, the settlements don’t make a whole lot of sense. They just seem prone to start conflict.

The Israelis would see it as establishing facts on the ground, as establishing an Israeli presence in what is part of Eretz Yisrael (translated as 'the Land of Israel'). They call it Judaea-Samaria, a return to their homeland. The idea that they are a settler-colonial state is rejected by most Israelis. They see it as returning to biblical Israel.

Do you think Britain was right to make the Balfour Declaration?  

It happened. It is history. What we can do is look at why Britain did it and what the impact has been. The impact, I’m afraid, has been pretty awful in the long term. We can’t undo the past, but we can acknowledge it, and I think we should do so, as British people. I don’t think we have to beat ourselves about the breast and say “Oh, how awful we are” but I think we have to acknowledge the way we have ruled different parts of the world and the impact it’s had. And when the centenary of the Balfour Project came around, the British government just said “We’re proud of the part we played in the establishment of Israel”, but there was no recognition that they promised part of someone else’s land to a third party. And I think we need to make more constructive effort towards peace-making now.  And to start by calling for the implementation of international law. The state of Israel is there. It was created by the UN and I believe it should continue to exist within safe and secure boundaries. And the vast majority of Palestinians do as well. And I think the vast majority of people in Gaza, whether they actively support Hamas or not, would accept the Israeli state if the occupation was ended and if the Palestinians had a state of their own.

What would you say to the idea that war in the Middle East is inevitable?

It does seem to be a never-ending conflict, I agree, but we have to hope and we have to look for ways to bring an end to the war, to bring peace. It is hard to see an end but I believe we have to work for one, and I think we have to put pressure on our Government to take steps in that direction. I don’t think war is inevitable. I don’t think anything is inevitable in history, in the future. We can learn from the past, if we wish to. Not that history ever repeats itself exactly, but you can see certain situations repeating and you can conduct your affairs in the present in a more fruitful way with an understanding of the past.

Definitely. How far do you think Israel would go, now, to get back its hostages from Hamas?

I don’t know. There are many Israelis who say that should be the number one priority. It looks like the government’s priority is to smash Hamas. Thank God the Qtaris seem to be carrying on sustained negotiations and brokerage involving Hamas, the Americans and the Israelis. I think they are doing a great job. And I think that in the future China can play a part. I mean, America is not an honest broker. It has so much invested in its support of Israel. But certainly the Arab states should play a part.

How do you think China would be involved?

China has not been involved until now, so she could be a reasonably honest broker. I believe China played a part in reconciling Iran and Saudi Arabia, who had been sworn enemies. But I don’t think China would want to be sucked into the current situation, to be honest.

It seems so complex and entangled that it is hard to see a straightforward solution. 

I agree. We have to unpick what has happened in the past. We certainly need to acknowledge it to understand the hatred, bitterness and anger. It is no good just telling both sides to put down their guns and shake hands. It requires a lot of facing up to what has happened in the past, undoubtedly.

I feel like the war is becoming less religiously charged and more politically charged.

I think it is religious and political combined among the more right-wing members of Netanyahu’s government. They justify annexation of the West Bank on religious, fundamentalist grounds, as part of a Zionist project, a God-given mission if you like. But I think it is driven by nationalism and control over land. But often religious beliefs are evoked to support particular political positions.

Why do you think some organisations have been reluctant to call Hamas a terrorist organisation?

I think many governments recognise Hamas as a terrorist government organisation. But many people would say that Israel has carried out acts which can be regarded as terroristic in both the West Bank and Gaza for many years. At the moment, hundreds of West Bankers are being arrested every day, many then held in military detention without charge or trial. More than 50 children have been killed in the last few months in the West Bank. We have films taken by various groups, including Israeli Human Rights groups, which verify this. We tend not to apply the word “terrorism” to the actions of a state player. But it can be argued that actions carried out by Israeli settlers, for instance, are acts of terrorism. A year after the signing of the first Oslo accords, a Jewish settler in Hebron went into a mosque and killed 29 people at prayer. That was a terrorist action. But many Israelis don't often hear about such actions or certainly do not want to confront them. They hear much more about Hamas actions carried out over 30 years rather than those carried out by settlers or the Israeli Defence Forces.

What seems different now is that Israel is being questioned on its actions. Do you think the war is unfair, that it favours Israel because of its bigger military?

Certainly Israel has a more powerful military. In the West Bank most Palestinians are unarmed, except for a few in refugee camps. And that is where Israel claims there is a centre of Hamas-based militant activity. Israel is much more powerful militarily. There is this huge imbalance, so when people call for the two sides to talk, not only has Israel for many years been opposed to any talking, any negotiation, it has felt it can manage the conflict. There has been low level violence in the West Bank and every so often Israel has “mowed the lawn” (a term used by an Israeli official) in Gaza. So Israel hasn’t felt the need to sit down and negotiate. And this government has said it is opposed to any discussion about any kind of Palestinian state.

Do you think this conflict will end with Netanyahu in power?

Most commentators think Netanyahu’s time in government is limited. There has been so much criticism. Most Israelis are right behind the war effort at the moment and are supportive of the war aims. However, there is a lot of bitterness and anger at the failings of the military establishment. And even before this war broke out, there were massive demonstrations against some of the political actions being taken by this government. I think Netanyahu’s days are numbered. He’s fighting to hold on to power. He has held power, on and off, for the past 30 years. And he knows that once he is out of power he might be dragged before a court and imprisoned on corruption charges. So he’s not going to give up power easily.

What would you say about the countries that have refused to let in Palestinian refugees, such as Jordan and Egypt?

Egypt would say that if they allow vast numbers of Palestinians into Sinai that will destabilise their country. There are Egyptian groups in Sinai already which are a thorn in the side of the Egyptian government. The Egyptian government disliked the Muslim Brotherhood and there are links between the Brotherhood and Hamas. And most Palestinians, while they wish to escape the fighting, do not want to be made refugees again, they do not wish to be subjected to expulsion again, like they were in 1948. Most Palestinians believe that Gaza is their home and they want to stay there. Whether that will change in the months and yearsahead, I don’t know. Conditions are going to be so appalling. Even if there is not mass starvation, there will be outbreaks of disease, and grinding poverty for years to come.