Year 13 English Literature students discuss on-line the view that “Tennessee Williams' 'A Streetcar Named Desire' and Edward Albee's 'Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?' are just as socially, morally and philosophically relevant today - perhaps more so - than they were when first performed in 1947 and 1962 respectively."
Rex - Power dynamics between genders are topics present in both “Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?” and “Streetcar Named Desire”. In both plays there are moments of focus on this issue. Albee tends to deconstruct it or to transgress it by comparing Martha’s aggressive nature to that of Honey. Williams tends to narrate it and subtly rather than overtly challenge it. This is shown in Stanley’s controlling relationship with Stella and Blanche’s subtle awareness of the absurd expectations.
JEB - insightful point, Rex - how would you characterise the difference between deconstructing and narrating and what does that suggest about the differing intentions of the two dramatists?
Rex - Williams is more of a narration than deconstruction because the power dynamics between genders remain the same. There are changes of status, but the overall power and dominance exerted by Stanley, a symbol of masculinity, remains constant. Albee changes the power dynamics throughout the play. Between George and Martha, there is a constant change in who is the dominant force in the relationship. It starts off seeming as if it’s Martha but goes on to switch between the two. Because Albee is more absurdist in his writings than Williams, he has the freedom to stretch outside social norms in a way that one can’t when creating a more realistic depiction of society.
JEB - yes, I would agree: in an interesting way, Albee ends up as the more ‘political’ of the two writers, even though he is often seen as more interested in philosophy than society.
Theo - I would agree with Rex that SND certainly shows more traditional gender roles that we would take issue with today and WAOVW is more realistic in today’s society.
Theo - The dynamic of desire is still felt today. We all want to be desired but not left too vulnerable/exposed. We ultimately cannot escape our desires as like a ‘Streetcar’ they are prominent and are also a driving force.
Rex - That is an interesting observation Theo. There seems to be an overall theme of primal instinct and desire which is portrayed in the play. A driving force if you will. Would you say that because this is such an essential theme to the play that it is timeless?
Theo - yes, definitely. Desire is such a primal and powerful emotion that it’s been in our DNA for millennia and I believe that it does transcend time as it is instinctual and we act on it without thought or reason. Like the moth that follows the light we need no intellectual engagement to follow our desires and therefore will will forever do this into the future.
Dom - In Streetcar, some of the gender issues remain relevant to this do, since there is still perhaps an expectation, even less if it is less so than in the 1940s, for both men and women to conform to this gender roles. For instance, the need for men to conform to this idea of being strong and masculine such as Stanley’s depiction as a ‘richly feathered male bird among hens’ does still exist in some circles of society despite the increasing irrelevance in today’s society. I agree with Rex’s point about how both playwrights show gender stereotypes.
JEB: Interesting, Dom. Do you see the more stereotypical or schematic presentation of gender in Streetcar as a limitation? Or is that part of Williams’ purpose?
Dom - I think it is his purpose, since characters like Blanche and Mitch are attacked for their slights against their stereotypes, while Stella’s strength as a woman is demonstrated through Stanley’s dependance on her. The small deviations within the rather stereotypic roles drive the plot forward after all.
Nikhila - I am in agreement with both Dom and Julie, when cornering how the gender roles are still to an extent relevant in today’s world as through Honeys and Stellas transformation throughout the plays into what I classed as more dominant roles portray a similar journey that women have experienced in the real world. For example, ‘peel back the label’, honey is breaking her facade of the perfect si serÃa the women. Additionally The idea of gender conformity still exists today where males are forced to be ‘strong and unemotional ‘; what stanly symbolised.
JEB - Nikhila, do you think that showing emotion/feeling is still problematic today in terms of the perception of others? Or, conversely, does lack of the ability to connect emotionally or show empathy limit one in terms of being able to function within society? It is interesting that women in US and British politics in particular have sometimes had to repress their emotions publicly in order to be seen by some voters as having leadership ability - does that show a remaining double standard?
Julie- The gender roles presented in both plays appear outdated and somewhat extreme when compared to today's modern society. Blanche’s character, for example, represents the female stereotype of the 1940s which we could now say to be outdated. We do although in both plays see a shift of the gender stereotypes especially in the character of Honey as she is initially presented weak and submissive to Nick but towards the end of the play we see how she has matured and distanced herself from this image and attributed herself an image of growth and power even over her own husband.
Henry - Although many of the social interplays and commentaries are still relevant, some of the gender role dynamics, however, seem outdated and less relevant today. Many of Albee’s deeply intellectual points over the absurdities of language will always be somewhat relevant philosophical points, while the class struggles of streetcar still have poignant messages. The most significant messages which I have found to be most relevant within contemporary society are the dangers of illusion, and how a focus on appearance as a form of self worth can lead to destructive conclusions, as seen with Blanche and Martha.
JEB - Henry, do you think the issue of illusion is one that is becoming even more significant today - do you have any thoughts on why that is? It is interesting that something like the coronavirus, which represents a very essential reality, is difficult to treat in the same way as more abstract political issues in recent years. Any thoughts?
Henry - I think it is a more relevant issues now as the apparatus for illusion, such as social media or constant digital news, has created a short term fascination with appearance which subsequently dissolves into a ‘stream’. This is part of the reason coronavirus has been so dramatic, as unlike other more abstract issues, it has directly affected all aspect of public discourse, meaning unlike, for example, Brexit, it cannot be discarded or trivialised in the same way. Perhaps this is why meaningful action has taken longer to occur, not only due to the dramatic nature of the situation but also because it is not the fantastical, abstract issues the modern leaders are used to, and cannot be treated the same way.
Ed - I think that the gender roles in both plays are the most relevant of the social issues in the plays. The conflict between the genders is prevalent throughout, with the emasculation of Nick and George regularly, and the aggressive nature of Martha, contrasting the more reserved nature of George, seeming to invert the gender roles portrayed in Streetcar; with Stanley as the aggressive one and Blanche as the more traditional belle character.
Imogen- The idea of stereotypes and labels is a problem presented in both plays which is still relevant in today's society. This idea links closely to the issues with gender which are demonstrated largely within VW. Honey originally represents the typical women in that generation, silent and ruled by her male partner. However through the use of the motif alcohol this is removed by the game she creates ‘peel the label’, used to strip back the image that she has been left with. This is an idea relevant today when taking into account the feminist movement of trying to strip back the stereotype to result in equality.
JEB - Imogen, that is an interesting observation about feminism being a process of stripping back stereotypes to result in equality. In VW, George talks of the need to get to the “marrow” - where does equality ultimately lie: is it external (e.g. equality of opportunity) or internal (our common humanity - however we wish to characterise this?)
Imogen: I believe this would vary between different people, however I would say that a combination of both is necessary for an ‘equal’ life. This external equality IA vital in terms of respect, which is lacking in scene 10 SND. The animalistic male movement ‘backing into the corner’ shows Stanley’s power in the situation. The external equality may have given Blanche the power needed to escape this. Despite this an internal sense of equality gives the characters a voice, which is demonstrated through the character Honey. She is often belittled and patronised as the males address her with childish manors, ‘honey-bunny’. An internal common humanity would aim to stop this and give her an equal platform to voice her opinions.
Chelsea- I think the characters and themes in the play reflects many issues seen in the modern world. The difference in social class in Streetcar eg between Stanley and Blanche can say to have shaped most of Stanley’s later aggressive motives against Blanche. The development of the characters in Virgina Woolf throughout the play such as Honey’s initially petite and naive character to later on being able to lead a game “Peel the Label” perhaps show how the role of women has been enforced and emphasised through the decades. In both plays reality and illusion is significant. Albee’s warning of the dangers of drowning in illusions and the need to pull back(shown through Martha) in contrast to Williams’ argument of the hopelessness of becoming illusioned (shown through Blanche) both reflect the disillusionment of the contemporary society through the American Dream and loss of traditional values(Blanche losing Belle Reve). This can be applied to now as well, where sometimes clear aims are not made but hurried short-term actions which may have lost direction to the initial purpose and on its way having stripped down traditional values.
Theo - a good point Chelsea. Would you argue that Stanley is aggressive towards Blanche (rape scene X) because he is jealous of her higher class or because he feels superior to her in some other way? Or perhaps he is acting on some other primal instinct?
JEB: Very interesting response, Chelsea. Could you expand a little on the point you are making in your final sentence?
Chelsea- In some businesses, the initial ideas are good and have potential to enlarge and make a greater influence in their community, however many influences can hinder this process such as the entrance of more demanding investors, changing face of their targeted market or social changes may force actions to stray from original values. In Streetcar, Blanche starts off with status, beauty, money etc in at Belle Reve, but many social influences such as Allen’s suidide, loss of Belle Reve and stanley have forced her to change irrevocably.
Chelsea-In response to Theo, I would say that this jealousy constitutes only part of her reasons. The struggle to gain Stella’s attention is another area of conflict between Blanche and Stanley and perhaps this could be how he feels superior to her. Not only is he Stella’s husband, but Stella has also socially accustomed to middle-class life in New Orleans.
JEB: Very interesting observations from all of you. Theo’s point about desire makes me wonder whether in our current situation, the theme of isolation and the sense of claustrophobia in both plays seems relevant - the idea of our desires (to interact physically and personally with others, to go out and be physically free) being restricted or repressed and thus intensified? Any thoughts on that?
Imogen- The idea of claustrophobia can be seen immediately in VW through the use of setting. The entire play taking place in one room intensifies the drama and may be used to symbolise the repressed thoughts (from Honey and possibly George?). The three long scenes also support this mirroring the inability to escape from the thoughts and emotions.
Julie- SND is set in the same house throughout the whole play, similarly WAOVF is set in the same room. The same setting could allow us to gain deeper focus on the characters and not on the surroundings, but as readers or watchers of the play we sense claustrophobia. This sense of closure emphasises the overall closure the characters have within themselves, as they deliberately hide the truth to avoid pain and delusion.
Imogen: I agree with Julie about the idea of hiding truth, this is shown often within SND through Blanche are her obsessive washing. She uses the bathroom as a place of sanity to wash away the problems in her life. This reinforces her isolation within her mind, on the outside she portrays a person with a social elite status, however she is incapable of expressing and sharing her thoughts/problems.
Ed - The claustrophobia in the plays is a tool to force social interaction between the characters, they are forced into close proximity and this allows for the absurdist drama and interactions to take place. They are also in cases repressed, Nick and Honey and Blanche are all forced into their separate situations, they cannot escape, so they are even more so forced to interact with people they do not wish to. This creates even more conflict amplifying many of the themes in the plays.
Nikhila : the motif of isolation can be seen in both plays through their use of setting as both take place in a house and apartment, resulting in the characters being in close proximity and thus tensions to rise. However I also believe that isolation can be illustrated in VW through the fact that the couples feel isolated from what is the American dream as they both lack children and thus feel separated from this idea of a perfect family. In order to try and bring themselves closer to this goal, with gauge and Martha they create an imaginary child whereas Nick and Honey try to be the perfect couple with Nick as the ‘stud’ and honey as a ‘mouse’.
Nick - Claustrophobia has a great influence on both plays. In both plays, the claustrophobia lies in the fact that there are many people all trying to live or function in a small living area. In SND there are 3 people to the downstairs of a two room apartment and in WAVW there are 4 people, all drinking alcohol, in a single living room. These set ups create the ability for friction between characters to form. Which is where the comedy or tragedy in the plays is derived from.
Rex - Nick, how does each playwright portray this sense of claustrophobia, where can we see the influence? Could you say that the music in “Streetcar Named Desire” is a component of the claustrophobia as well as physical surroundings in the way that it places the pressure of the past onto Blanche and also adds tension to the atmosphere bringing the audience closer and so this sense of claustophobia comes to fruition?
Dom - I certainly think that claustrophobia caused by the need to conform to gender roles does increase desire within characters in both plays. In Streetcar, Blanche perhaps desires more because she is seen as an isolated woman without a husband. It could even be this drive that pushes her to the extremes of her desires with young men to make up for that lack of security and the constant shame she feels. In Virginia Woolf, Martha is the freest character in terms of her desire and also conformity to gender stereotypes but it is shown that Martha does just want to be a mother as she grieves the death of her son and is actually rather gentle so that could again be due to the restriction of conforming to gender stereotypes. This very much mimics therefore our current claustrophobia increasing our desire for the personal freedoms that we once held.
JEB: another thought that strikes me is that, in the USA at present (and both of these are American plays), there is a push from some quarters to end lockdowns and require people to go back to work- so that those who are vulnerable to coronavirus essentially accept they may have to be put at risk for the greater economic picture. To what extent does Blanche’s fate at the end of ‘Streetcar’ (her being sacrificed because she is ‘unproductive’) and society moving on shed light on this?
Theo - I would definitely argue that this is repressed well in ‘A Streetcar Named Desire’ (the cut-throat society in America). For example, characters like Stanley thrive in this harsh environment because they are loud and brave and use instinct. On the other hand, characters such as Blanche struggle and are swept aside because they are consumed and taken over by their own emotions. Perhaps Stanley’s simplicity and lack of academic knowledge compared to Blanche shields him from more complex insecurities that are felt by Blanche and therefore ‘ignorance is bliss’. Furthermore, in order to survive in this society, self confidence and belief of the truth is necessary as Stanley has this in abundance where Blanche lacks in confidence and cannot face the brutal truth. This links also to WAOVW as George recognises that for Martha and him to survive, they must come away from the world of illusion (of putting tears in an ‘ice box’) and therefore the son must be ‘killed’ in part three (the exorcism).
Nikhila : Theo’s point of Stanley being able to survive due to his power and comience can be illustrated through the fact that he is portrayed as a predator frequently with Blanche being his prey. In scene 10 this game of cat and mouse comes to a head where the predator gets his prey
Ed - The sacrifice of Blanche somewhat resembles the ideas of American society, the disruption she causes means that Stanley is reactionary in his actions to try and evict Blanche by getting her committed, many feel that they should return to work as they need to return America to normal, like Stanley was going.
JEB: thoughtful point, Ed - can America or any other society after this go back to “normal” - or do you think the disruption to/shift in behaviour and perception will be too great. There are a lot of ways of doing things and perceiving things that we will not easily go back to afterwards. What do you think?
Dom - I think Blanche’s sacrifice does resemble a need in American society to be seen as productive by conforming to what is deemed as acceptable i.e believing in traditional family values (having a husband and children particularly at Blanche’s age). This is part of the reason why Stanley attempts to get rid of her, particularly as he reveals why she is ‘dirty’ to Mitch and forces her to break off her engagement, even if he himself is not the ideal representation of a wholesome family man (he does rape Blanche after all). Maybe in some conservative circles this may be seen as good for economic security, but I think it was more for social reasons as Blanche had disrupted Stanley life - he may have only used Blanche’s past as a tool to get rid of her perhaps manipulating Mitch’s more conservative sympathies.
Mia - I believe that Blanche’s fate at the end of SND mirrors the idea of society moving on and almost forgetting about the people more vulnerable. The character that causes Blanche’s fate is Stanley but I do not believe he did it for any economic gain, like America at present, but rather for a sense of security as he felt vulnerable within his relationship with Stella.
JEB: That’s an interesting observation about security, Mia. Where does security lie in each play - economically, or through parenthood or in something more essential/internal - does our identity (and integrity - sense of wholeness) come from within or without and how do the plays shine light on this? As we can see from our current situation, being thrown back upon yourself with limited external stimulus or interaction can be a challenge. Will there be a tendency for some to withdraw into illusion and struggle to reconnect afterwards? Do the plays speak to this?
Mia - I think both plays speak of the need to withdraw into illusion and the struggles of reconnecting afterwards. In WAOVW, Martha appears sane throughout the entire play but in the final act it is revealed that she, like Blanche in SND, requires illusion as a coping mechanism. Martha’s illusion is in the form of an imaginary son. Albee shows that it is difficult for her to reconnect with reality when Martha says ‘sometime I forget’ when describing her ‘son’, conveying that the line between fantasy and reality are blurred even for her - a character who appears mentally stable. Furthermore, in WAOVW, the ability to disconnect with reality can be interpreted as being able to see the truth. During the exorcism in act 3, George is attempting to reconnect Martha with the real-word again but, although it appears she is falling dangerously deep into her own fantasy, this may be her only escape from reality and actually what allows her to cope with her life.
Imogen- Agreeing with Mia’s point of society moving on, this is shown by the fast paced and short scenes throughout the play. Despite constant conflict the story moves on, develops and thickens leaving the vulnerable behind.
Rex - There is definitely a present theme of a rather cruel, instrumental reason at work. The American Dream, although never discussed, seems to be mocked in both plays but more so in WAOFV. The American dream element of Streetcar is in the vicious nature of their society. Every individual is fighting for themselves, they must use what they can to get ahead and to make money. Stanley is seen as an ideal contender for this as it is known that he is better, stronger than all of his friends. He is described as having “something about him” which sets him apart from the others. This ‘rat race’ agenda remains in American politics today with the absurd focus on economy over wellbeing. Blanche’s exit is in many ways symbolic of throwing out the broken parts. Blanche no longer optimises the nuclear family and traditional way of life. She is therefore seen as a hindrance to the apparent goal of society and committed to the flames. The move towards finishing lockdowns in favour of economy and sacrificing real lives is an excellent comparison. It also shows a horrendous brutality of America which is portrayed in Streetcar Named Desire.
Julie- Blanche appears destined to nothing and powerlessness at the end of the play. She has been stripped of all she had and what made her the woman she is. She does in fact not have a job and appears to be damaging other people's normal life routine (Stanley and Stella) so therefore her leaving may be seen as positive as it allows others to return to normality. Just like Blanche who disrupts the normal day to day life of others, today in America many people who are not vulnerable to the virus have been deprived of their normal routines to protect the elderly or ill. BTW i am not trying to say that everyone isolating is a bad idea because i totally agree it is necessary in order to restrain this all quickly and efficiently.
JEB: that is an interesting point, Julie: the desire for normality is a natural human desire, but is it arguable that both plays suggest things can never be normal again once something disruptive has happened - is this more true of VW than SC? What do you think?
Nick- You have to say that staying indoors during this pandemic is a good thing to do to protect the population and peoples health. However, at the end of this pandemic there will be a global recession. Which is why Trump is encouraging Americans to work, as the economy took years to recover from the great depression 1930s which america would have been recovering from at the time that SND was written by Tennessee Williams. The great depression is what maybe put Blanche in the position that she was in when she went to live in Elysian fields. As she lost all her money and Belle Reve went through the ground. Just a possibility.
JEB: interesting link you make between the Depression and the decline of Belle Reve, Nick. Also, of course the economic stimulus of WWII and its aftermath (GI Bill etc) resulted social mobility (up as well as down): Stanley is a war veteran.
Henry- Trump is talking about the people being forced to work due to economic pressures rather than a social responsibility to help the weakest. I believe the key focus is not on the leaders but rather society as a whole and how due to the economic grip the capitalist system which has forced onto the working classes a necessity to work, and feed the economy, in order to survive due to the lack of social care they are receiving. Therefore to what extent do you agree that the superstructures of our society are inherently oppressive to the proletariat?
JEB: Nick/Henry - interesting discussion: do you see the Nick/George debate over Biology/History in VW and the Darwinian imagery in Streetcar as particularly relevant to your points of debate and discussion?
Henry - This is perhaps an ironic point, as history is often focused on leaders and nations, neglecting the individuals as statistics, whereas biology is focused on living organisms and their welfare. This contrasts how George and Nick treat those around them and interact, as George is seemingly compassionate by the end, whereas Nick continues to use others as a means to his own end, focused on his own legacy (history) rather than others welfare (biology).
JEB: Leading on from Mia’s comments above, a question for all of you: Where does ‘security’ lie in each play - economically, or through parenthood or in something more essential/internal - does our identity (and integrity - sense of wholeness) come from within or without and how do the plays shine light on this? As we can see from our current situation, being thrown back upon yourself with limited external stimulus or interaction can be a challenge. Will there be a tendency for some to withdraw into illusion and struggle to reconnect afterwards? Do the plays speak to this?
Dom - Economic security is not really a major factor in either play, except perhaps for Blanche who has seen her entire wealth evaporate over the recent years. Therefore I would say that parenthood or maybe marriage as the true sense of security. This is certainly the case for Blanche and Mitch as they look for a spouse to solve their problems. It also resonates with Stanley since he tries to protect his marriage and new family with Stella from Blanche, motivating his attempt to remove her from his life. In Virginia Woolf, George and Martha’s marriage is shown to be their main source of security, as Martha admits to George being the only one she could ever love. The only characters that don’t adhere to this are Nick and Honey, whose marriage is a weak point for both of them which George easily exploits in ‘Get the Guests’.
Ed - Security, as Julie says, can be found in the relationships between the characters, George and Martha have a security in their relationship that allows them to play the games they do with their guests as they trust each other in the secure relationship. In contrast Blanche has no security and is therefore unable to have the same trust that George and Martha do, she is unable to trust anyone and has no security as a result.
Julie- I believe in a sense the security is found within relationships although they can be seen toxic. For example, if we consider Martha and George throughout the whole play, mind games are always persistent and George even betrays Martha with the killing of the son. After this cruel act we would imagine a complete rupture of the couple but they appear the strongest they have ever been underlining how they always find comfort within each other.
Imogen: Status can be used to assure a sense of security, and as a result a lack of this is is often a great insecurity for characters e.g. George and Stanley. Within VW this is shown by the conflict between George and Nick about their departments with George desperately trying to assure himself of intellectual dominance. This idea of dominance and power is another way of receiving security, hence George’s obsession with being the centre of discussion. He often shouts ‘THIS IS MY GAME’ reiterating the desperation for power and control to be secure.
Theo - Imogen, would you argue that by the end of the play George is more secure than Nick or the other way round?
Theo - I think that in SND security lies with the man for economic stability as Stella must get money from Stanley. On the other hand, in WAOVW security is much more obscure and I would argue it’s not subjected to anyone individual or gender, but rather a combined effort to reject illusion and accept truth.
JEB: I think that is an interesting observation about key points of difference: a Marxist critical reading would see Blanche as sacrificed because she does not have productive value in a capitalist society. When you talk of Albee asking us to reject illusion and accept truth (you are right), what do you think is his definition of truth as presented in the play?
Theo: I think his idea of ‘truth’ may not always be the definite truth, but rather something that we know we can believe and provide evidence for, as opposed to believing in something that deep down we know is wrong(e.g the son).
JEB: Yes, this is an interesting question. You referred earlier to Stanley having a greater sense of “truth” than Blanche, I think. I wonder whether what he has is a greater sense of “reality” and that the difference between reality and truth is something both playwrights are very much interested in.
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